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	<title>Comments for Computing Education Blog</title>
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	<link>http://computinged.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>How do people understand computing, and how can we improve that understanding?</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 20:43:38 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Could CS departments be legally forced to change their practices? by Mark Guzdial</title>
		<link>http://computinged.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/could-cs-departments-be-legally-forced-to-change-their-practices/#comment-26913</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Guzdial]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 20:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://computinged.wordpress.com/?p=5780#comment-26913</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is really great, Lloyd! Thank you!  Barb and I have started talking about how we can measure the gap between (a) the interest that female students have in &lt;em&gt;computing&lt;/em&gt; and (b) the disinterest female students have for computer science &lt;em&gt;classes&lt;/em&gt;.  We actually have a bunch of data that point to such a gap (e.g., from the girls in summer camps vs enrollment in high school CS classes, from students who express interest in &quot;Media Computation&quot; but say they don&#039;t want &quot;Computer Science&quot; classes, from the 30% female population in our &quot;Computational Media&quot; degree but 12% female in our &quot;Computer Science&quot; degree). Maybe it is possible to make this case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is really great, Lloyd! Thank you!  Barb and I have started talking about how we can measure the gap between (a) the interest that female students have in <em>computing</em> and (b) the disinterest female students have for computer science <em>classes</em>.  We actually have a bunch of data that point to such a gap (e.g., from the girls in summer camps vs enrollment in high school CS classes, from students who express interest in &#8220;Media Computation&#8221; but say they don&#8217;t want &#8220;Computer Science&#8221; classes, from the 30% female population in our &#8220;Computational Media&#8221; degree but 12% female in our &#8220;Computer Science&#8221; degree). Maybe it is possible to make this case.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Could CS departments be legally forced to change their practices? by Lloyd</title>
		<link>http://computinged.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/could-cs-departments-be-legally-forced-to-change-their-practices/#comment-26911</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lloyd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 17:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://computinged.wordpress.com/?p=5780#comment-26911</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Universities can show compliance with Title IX by satisfying any one of three conditions (http://www.nacwaa.org/advocacy/title-ix/information). Conditions 1 and 3 are relevant to our discussion. The first is that the university is providing equal opportunities for both men and women in the sport (subject) in question. Most of us would say we are providing equal opportunity but you&#039;re suggesting that is not true because of the way we teach, and perhaps you&#039;re right. The third condition is that &quot;The institution is fully and effectively accommodating the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex.&quot;

Expounding on the third condition, the AAUW (http://www.aauw.org/2011/06/15/title-ix-compliance/) says &#039;an institution must prove that “no” is the answer to all of the following questions: “Is there unmet interest in a particular sport?”...&#039; (the other two questions are specific to fielding a team and finding competition).

More information about compliance, and meeting the third condition, is at http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/title9-qa-20100420.html.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Universities can show compliance with Title IX by satisfying any one of three conditions (<a href="http://www.nacwaa.org/advocacy/title-ix/information" rel="nofollow">http://www.nacwaa.org/advocacy/title-ix/information</a>). Conditions 1 and 3 are relevant to our discussion. The first is that the university is providing equal opportunities for both men and women in the sport (subject) in question. Most of us would say we are providing equal opportunity but you&#8217;re suggesting that is not true because of the way we teach, and perhaps you&#8217;re right. The third condition is that &#8220;The institution is fully and effectively accommodating the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex.&#8221;</p>
<p>Expounding on the third condition, the AAUW (<a href="http://www.aauw.org/2011/06/15/title-ix-compliance/" rel="nofollow">http://www.aauw.org/2011/06/15/title-ix-compliance/</a>) says &#8216;an institution must prove that “no” is the answer to all of the following questions: “Is there unmet interest in a particular sport?”&#8230;&#8217; (the other two questions are specific to fielding a team and finding competition).</p>
<p>More information about compliance, and meeting the third condition, is at <a href="http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/title9-qa-20100420.html" rel="nofollow">http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/title9-qa-20100420.html</a>.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Misunderstanding MOOCs and Computing Labor Shortage: Andy Kessler of WSJ.com by jasmine</title>
		<link>http://computinged.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/andy-kessler-of-wsj-com-misunderstanding-moocs-and-computing-labor-shortage/#comment-26908</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jasmine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 14:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://computinged.wordpress.com/?p=5741#comment-26908</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think our arguments are mutually exclusive. I&#039;m not arguing that the computing labor shortage can be purely solved by mid-career switches, or that there isn&#039;t a need to somehow make materials more engaging at undergrad level or for (some) MOOCs. What I&#039;m saying though is that at least for many, they provide avenues of reinvention never previously available. As low as the numbers may be, that may still be an infinite increase over previous numbers if it was almost non-existent before. This gives other people courage and belief that they can do it too.

This means a lot to me because while it makes sense to focus on future labor force and economy, it makes no sense to say no to the rest of the women who have come to the realization too late that they would&#039;ve liked to study CS. Not only were they misguided by a system with wrong perceptions (perhaps perpetrated by actual factors in the environment), they are then turned away by the system declaring that it&#039;s simply too late? 

I understand the gender imbalance in the industry. I work with 30 males and am the only girl on my team-- the ratio was worse than I imagined and much more intimidating too. But it matters that I will be there, because it will be that much less scary for the next woman joining the team. And it will matter for undergrads choosing their majors as well.

Anyway, just to clarify-- I&#039;m not agreeing with the article&#039;s reasoning of MOOCs somehow being the primary driver of reducing computing labor shortage, but I do think for the immediate term they provide viable options for however minimally helping to bridge the labor imbalance. It may only work for those with great self-learning initiatives, but all great developers are constantly self-learning anyway, even well into their jobs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think our arguments are mutually exclusive. I&#8217;m not arguing that the computing labor shortage can be purely solved by mid-career switches, or that there isn&#8217;t a need to somehow make materials more engaging at undergrad level or for (some) MOOCs. What I&#8217;m saying though is that at least for many, they provide avenues of reinvention never previously available. As low as the numbers may be, that may still be an infinite increase over previous numbers if it was almost non-existent before. This gives other people courage and belief that they can do it too.</p>
<p>This means a lot to me because while it makes sense to focus on future labor force and economy, it makes no sense to say no to the rest of the women who have come to the realization too late that they would&#8217;ve liked to study CS. Not only were they misguided by a system with wrong perceptions (perhaps perpetrated by actual factors in the environment), they are then turned away by the system declaring that it&#8217;s simply too late? </p>
<p>I understand the gender imbalance in the industry. I work with 30 males and am the only girl on my team&#8211; the ratio was worse than I imagined and much more intimidating too. But it matters that I will be there, because it will be that much less scary for the next woman joining the team. And it will matter for undergrads choosing their majors as well.</p>
<p>Anyway, just to clarify&#8211; I&#8217;m not agreeing with the article&#8217;s reasoning of MOOCs somehow being the primary driver of reducing computing labor shortage, but I do think for the immediate term they provide viable options for however minimally helping to bridge the labor imbalance. It may only work for those with great self-learning initiatives, but all great developers are constantly self-learning anyway, even well into their jobs.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Could CS departments be legally forced to change their practices? by Mark Guzdial</title>
		<link>http://computinged.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/could-cs-departments-be-legally-forced-to-change-their-practices/#comment-26907</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Guzdial]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://computinged.wordpress.com/?p=5780#comment-26907</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lloyd, can you point me to a reference for that, please?  I&#039;m interested in how Title IX cases have been constructed and what makes them successful.  Are there articles on successful Title IX cases that have this characteristic that you&#039;re describing, that there was a demand from the under-represented group?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lloyd, can you point me to a reference for that, please?  I&#8217;m interested in how Title IX cases have been constructed and what makes them successful.  Are there articles on successful Title IX cases that have this characteristic that you&#8217;re describing, that there was a demand from the under-represented group?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Misunderstanding MOOCs and Computing Labor Shortage: Andy Kessler of WSJ.com by Mark Guzdial</title>
		<link>http://computinged.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/andy-kessler-of-wsj-com-misunderstanding-moocs-and-computing-labor-shortage/#comment-26906</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Guzdial]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://computinged.wordpress.com/?p=5741#comment-26906</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jasmine, women are under-represented in mid-career and leadership of IT companies (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/resources/2007_scorecard_web.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;see scorecard at NCWIT.org&lt;/a&gt;).  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.forbes.com/sites/csr/2010/12/02/the-immeasurable-value-of-retaining-women-in-the-workplace/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Women are woefully under-represented in leadership of all companies&lt;/a&gt;, but it&#039;s worse in IT companies.  The number of enrollees in any MOOC isn&#039;t the critical issue -- &lt;a href=&quot;http://computinged.wordpress.com/2012/09/25/who-completes-a-mooc/&quot; title=&quot;Who completes a MOOC?&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;it&#039;s the number of completers who will go on to more learning&lt;/a&gt;, and &lt;a href=&quot;http://computinged.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/hake-on-moorfaps-massive-open-online-repetitions-of-failed-pedagogy/&quot; title=&quot;Hake on MOORFAPs: Massive Open Online Repetitions of FAiled Pedagogy&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;there&#039;s a question whether anybody learns anything in MOOCs&lt;/a&gt;.

I&#039;m glad that MOOCs are working for you.  From what data I see, you are an outlier -- most women are not succeeding with open learning resources for getting into computing.  If we want large numbers, we have to figure out how to make learning opportunities that work for the average students, too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jasmine, women are under-represented in mid-career and leadership of IT companies (<a href="http://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/resources/2007_scorecard_web.pdf" rel="nofollow">see scorecard at NCWIT.org</a>).  <a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/csr/2010/12/02/the-immeasurable-value-of-retaining-women-in-the-workplace/" rel="nofollow">Women are woefully under-represented in leadership of all companies</a>, but it&#8217;s worse in IT companies.  The number of enrollees in any MOOC isn&#8217;t the critical issue &#8212; <a href="http://computinged.wordpress.com/2012/09/25/who-completes-a-mooc/" title="Who completes a MOOC?" rel="nofollow">it&#8217;s the number of completers who will go on to more learning</a>, and <a href="http://computinged.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/hake-on-moorfaps-massive-open-online-repetitions-of-failed-pedagogy/" title="Hake on MOORFAPs: Massive Open Online Repetitions of FAiled Pedagogy" rel="nofollow">there&#8217;s a question whether anybody learns anything in MOOCs</a>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad that MOOCs are working for you.  From what data I see, you are an outlier &#8212; most women are not succeeding with open learning resources for getting into computing.  If we want large numbers, we have to figure out how to make learning opportunities that work for the average students, too.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Could CS departments be legally forced to change their practices? by Lloyd</title>
		<link>http://computinged.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/could-cs-departments-be-legally-forced-to-change-their-practices/#comment-26894</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lloyd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 02:34:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://computinged.wordpress.com/?p=5780#comment-26894</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In order to win a Title IX case, you have to convince the court that there is a demand on the part of the under-represented gender that is not being met due to discrimination, intentional or otherwise. I don&#039;t think you can convince anybody that there is an unmet demand on the part of women for higher education in computer science. If we can find some way to get women to want to study computer science - whether it&#039;s changing societal attitudes or modifying K-12 education or whatever, then we can consider Title IX. Until then, it&#039;s a red herring.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In order to win a Title IX case, you have to convince the court that there is a demand on the part of the under-represented gender that is not being met due to discrimination, intentional or otherwise. I don&#8217;t think you can convince anybody that there is an unmet demand on the part of women for higher education in computer science. If we can find some way to get women to want to study computer science &#8211; whether it&#8217;s changing societal attitudes or modifying K-12 education or whatever, then we can consider Title IX. Until then, it&#8217;s a red herring.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Misunderstanding MOOCs and Computing Labor Shortage: Andy Kessler of WSJ.com by jasmine</title>
		<link>http://computinged.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/andy-kessler-of-wsj-com-misunderstanding-moocs-and-computing-labor-shortage/#comment-26892</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jasmine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 00:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://computinged.wordpress.com/?p=5741#comment-26892</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know enough about the nuances of women currently in computing, but my feeling is that the number of them leaving their careers is not a logical proxy of how many want to enter. How do these numbers compare to women leaving mid-career in other industries? Could there be natural attrition because of family considerations, or another set of reasons to address to make them want to stay?

Either way, while I&#039;m not sure what the exact number would be for people wanting to switch careers, my guess is that it&#039;s significant enough to warrant attention and will be growing even more. Dev bootcamp receives hundreds of applications a month (granted, not all female) and Hackbright Academy (an all female program that I attended) received 500 applications for its last 10-week cohort.  This is 1/4 of my class at UPenn (of course, I understand I am kind of comparing apples to oranges here)

Almost all of my classmates at Hackbright and many other self-learned I have met have done a MOOC. I myself would not have pursued CS/programming if I was never exposed to Stanford&#039;s opencourseware. It gave me an exposure that would&#039;ve been difficult to come by in another era.

It is easy to argue here that I recognized the need to move beyond MOOCs to carry my learning to another level-- and that much is true. But without MOOCs, many of us would never have even been able to recognize that we were interested in the topic in the first place. And now that I actually have a job in software, it is the most viable option for me to continue learning.

I see the funnels of increasing the number of women in computing occuring at three junctures:

1) ensuring people who have no idea what CS is about to have exposure and the ability to try out the subject
2) ensuring those who do try to have a good, engaging experience that make them want to stay
3) ensuring those who want to stay have ongoing access to knowledge and an encouraging environment to further learning

I believe that MOOCs provide good options for 1. and 3. (for some good courses 2. as well). I see it being particularly good at 1: if I had access as a HS student, maybe I would&#039;ve not had the preconceptions that I did and decided to pursue it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know enough about the nuances of women currently in computing, but my feeling is that the number of them leaving their careers is not a logical proxy of how many want to enter. How do these numbers compare to women leaving mid-career in other industries? Could there be natural attrition because of family considerations, or another set of reasons to address to make them want to stay?</p>
<p>Either way, while I&#8217;m not sure what the exact number would be for people wanting to switch careers, my guess is that it&#8217;s significant enough to warrant attention and will be growing even more. Dev bootcamp receives hundreds of applications a month (granted, not all female) and Hackbright Academy (an all female program that I attended) received 500 applications for its last 10-week cohort.  This is 1/4 of my class at UPenn (of course, I understand I am kind of comparing apples to oranges here)</p>
<p>Almost all of my classmates at Hackbright and many other self-learned I have met have done a MOOC. I myself would not have pursued CS/programming if I was never exposed to Stanford&#8217;s opencourseware. It gave me an exposure that would&#8217;ve been difficult to come by in another era.</p>
<p>It is easy to argue here that I recognized the need to move beyond MOOCs to carry my learning to another level&#8211; and that much is true. But without MOOCs, many of us would never have even been able to recognize that we were interested in the topic in the first place. And now that I actually have a job in software, it is the most viable option for me to continue learning.</p>
<p>I see the funnels of increasing the number of women in computing occuring at three junctures:</p>
<p>1) ensuring people who have no idea what CS is about to have exposure and the ability to try out the subject<br />
2) ensuring those who do try to have a good, engaging experience that make them want to stay<br />
3) ensuring those who want to stay have ongoing access to knowledge and an encouraging environment to further learning</p>
<p>I believe that MOOCs provide good options for 1. and 3. (for some good courses 2. as well). I see it being particularly good at 1: if I had access as a HS student, maybe I would&#8217;ve not had the preconceptions that I did and decided to pursue it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Could CS departments be legally forced to change their practices? by gasstationwithoutpumps</title>
		<link>http://computinged.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/could-cs-departments-be-legally-forced-to-change-their-practices/#comment-26890</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gasstationwithoutpumps]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 23:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://computinged.wordpress.com/?p=5780#comment-26890</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree that studies involving different institutions at different times helps considerably to reduce the effects of extraneous variables.

One other problem with generalizing from the Porter and Simon study is that they did 3 simultaneous interventions, so it is a little difficult to say which are drivers for the effect and which just &quot;passengers&quot;.  Again, multiple studies with different combinations of the interventions can help tease that apart.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that studies involving different institutions at different times helps considerably to reduce the effects of extraneous variables.</p>
<p>One other problem with generalizing from the Porter and Simon study is that they did 3 simultaneous interventions, so it is a little difficult to say which are drivers for the effect and which just &#8220;passengers&#8221;.  Again, multiple studies with different combinations of the interventions can help tease that apart.</p>
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		<title>Comment on MOOCs today are about less data for the teacher by Mark Guzdial</title>
		<link>http://computinged.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/moocs-today-are-about-less-data-for-the-teacher/#comment-26889</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Guzdial]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 21:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://computinged.wordpress.com/?p=5753#comment-26889</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In MOOCs, they have lots of data.  How much gets to the teacher?  And does the right kind of data get to the teacher?  That&#039;s the question that Jeff Rick is asking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In MOOCs, they have lots of data.  How much gets to the teacher?  And does the right kind of data get to the teacher?  That&#8217;s the question that Jeff Rick is asking.</p>
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		<title>Comment on MOOCs today are about less data for the teacher by Mark Guzdial</title>
		<link>http://computinged.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/moocs-today-are-about-less-data-for-the-teacher/#comment-26888</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Guzdial]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 21:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://computinged.wordpress.com/?p=5753#comment-26888</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What is your evidence?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is your evidence?</p>
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